Authored by: cresmer on Friday, May 12 2006 @ 03:06 PM

Hey, that was fun. It's Ann-Elise's birthday today, too.

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Don't give the devil a ride--he will want to drive.

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Authored by: ariari on Friday, May 12 2006 @ 03:24 PM

Did you talk about Dean's misstatement?

I want to love him, but sometimes he makes it so difficult.

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Authored by: brooke! on Friday, May 12 2006 @ 04:00 PM

Remember when Civil Unions passed and Howie's official response was something along the lines of "Well, I'm glad the Supreme Court didn't define it as marriage...I think we all are."

No. Not really, Howard. Some of us, including the national Supreme Court, kinda think seperate-but-equal is BS. Better then nothing, but still BS.

Then he ran for President, and was all "And my state was a champion for civil liberties! We were the first state to abolish slavery! [not really, we just let escaped slaves from other states live here first] We were the first state to pass civil unions! [which you're glad weren't defined as marriage...]"

I mean, I had enough hometown pride to root for the guy, and defend the screaming-unidirectional mic incident, but I still don't trust him. I mean, he's a politician. Sheesh.

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Authored by: billsimmon on Friday, May 12 2006 @ 05:04 PM

Brooke, I think VT was really and actually the first state to outlaw slavery. Where does your info come from? Wikipedia's entry on VT includes the sentence:

[Vermont's] was among the first written constitutions in North America and was indisputably the first to abolish the institution of slavery, provide for universal manhood suffrage and require support of public schools.

Vermont's legislature also declared war against Hitler's Germany months before the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour.

Quick story that I related to my peers at coffee: The first time I found myself being gapingly impressed with Dean was when he was governor and on one of his frequent "Ask the Governor" live call-in shows on VT Public TV. It was amid the 2000 election civil unions craziness, and an elderly woman called the show and said, "I'm mad at you about the civil unions because my insurance company raised my rates and when I asked why they told me it was because of the civil unions law!"

Dean looked into the lens of the camera and said "They're lying to you. And if you would please call my office tomorrow moring and tell us the name of your insurance company we will prosecute them because they're lying it's illegal for them to tell you that."

I was all, "whoa, this guy doesn't fuck around." And at his best, he doesn't. Unfortunately, the same talk-from-your-gut instinct that gives us great moments like that one, also gives us the stupid crap like what Ari linked to. I'll still take Howie over 99% of everyone else in the national political field.

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Authored by: ariari on Friday, May 12 2006 @ 05:50 PM

Sucks how the stupid crap is what people always remember. I've had
multiple conversations with the midwesterners at my school who think
Dean is a crazed idiot because of his screaming episode.

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Authored by: brooke! on Friday, May 12 2006 @ 07:29 PM

Vermont abolished slavery in 1777, in the new Constitution of the Republic of Vermont. (We were our own country for 14 years, from 1777-1791 remember, legally more along the lines of a territory. This cite lists Vermont as the first territory to abolish, with Pennsylvania as the first state.) When Vermont joined the United States in 1791, the 1777 date became accepted.

But it's trickier then that. First of all, there's a teensy bit of evidence that there were slaves as late as 1790. Then there's poor old Dinah Mason, who was sold to Stephen Jacon in 1783. She probably would have been "owned" by Jacob until her death, if only she hadn't become blind and infirm, and turned out by Jacob. She became a ward of the town of Windsor, who turned around and sued Jacob, saying basically that Mason was/had been owned by Jacob, and was therefore his responcibiliy. Jacob's lawyer, in turn, argued that since slavery had been outlawed in 1777, and Mason had been purchased in 1783, that Jacob never really owned her and therefore had no responcibility to her. Jacob won, and Mason was the responcibility of the town of Windsor until her death in 1809, despite the town's attempt to "warn her out of town" in 1807. (Cites: here, here)

Also, Fredrick Douglass made a tour of Vermont in 1843, and apparently had a rough go of it. (scroll to the bottom for Douglass's quote). Keep in mind, this was 66 years after the Republic of Vermont had abolished slavery, and there was STILL enough pro-slavery sentiment to cause Douglass to be "mobbed."

From Flow of History.com:
" Other Vermonters also began to reject the idea of forced movements and enslaving people. When the U.S. Congress passed the Fugitive Slave Act in 1850, which punished those aiding people fleeing slavery with imprisonment and fines, the Vermont General Assembly responded by declaring any reaching the state a free person."

Other things that stick in mind, but I am too hungry to hunt for cites for now: the percentage of slaves in Vermont in 1777 in proportion to white, landowning freed citizens was ridicuously low in proportion to the rest of country. So abolishing slaves wasn't a big deal. Also, the Allens (Ira, Ethan, et all) payed the Green Mountain Boys in land, not cash like the US Army did. So by and large, the majority of land owners in 1777, were soldiers with no money who wouldn't AFFORD slaves. Again, I could find cites for this, but I'm hungry. Really hungry.

So. End result: Vermont was the first TERRITORY to abolish slavery, but slaves who escaped and attempted safe harbour in Vermont were able to be recaptured by their owners until 1850. That's when the Underground Railroad to Vermont really took off, and good stuff started happening. But the 1777 date always bugs me because it's lauded as the date when slavery ENDED in Vermont, which obviously isn't the case.

And yes, as far as politicians go, Dean is definately on the Means Well side. I DO think that his stance on Universal Health Care is fanstastic, and I definately benefitted from that when I was poor in Vermont...my state health care was better then my parents' at the time. (My father is a Vietnam Vet and has Tricare, which is HORRIBLE and barely covers anything, but that's a whole other rant.) Hypocrisy just really bugs me, especially when history is tweeked and used as a "look at us we were soooo ahead of our time with cilvil liberties," platform. ps: that was a reallyreallyreally long rant/lecture. Sorry.

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Authored by: Neil Jensen on Friday, May 12 2006 @ 08:23 PM

No, don't apologize... That was really interesting to read...

On an unrelated note...

I strapped my think thing on and I'm ready to ride...

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Authored by: DanZ on Saturday, May 13 2006 @ 06:45 AM

ja, no need to apologize. this is just what happens to stimulated meat.

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